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Last week, Yale University hosted the "Abortion and Human Rights Debate" between pro-abortion advocate Frances Kissling, the former President of Catholics for Choice, and pro-life advocate Lila Rose, the founder and President of Live Action.
Kissling, who ran an abortion clinic for several years, wanted people to think about abortion as a "conflict of values." She thinks about the "value" of women's lives -- that they have a life and decisions to make about how to live that life -- and that "value" becomes "especially important" if and when a woman becomes pregnant, particularly if a woman didn't intend to become pregnant.
"Abortion is not just a right. Abortion is an important reproductive act," said Kissling. "This is a decision about how many children can you care for and love... a decision about whether you're going to have a baby or you're going to end a pregnancy."
The way that Kissling frames it, the decision about "what the right thing is to do" after getting pregnant is the most important decision of all -- not the decision about whether to have unprotected sex.
She then likened the question of "what the right thing is to do" to questions about "what the right thing is to do" about poor people, philanthropy, how much meat you want to consume and even overpopulation.
Lila Rose's opening remarks were quite a bit different, as you might imagine, starting off by sharing a recent story about a baby boy who was found dead in a University of Kentucky athlete's closet.
"This little boy's life ended in the dark, discarded like trash, as if he had no worth at all," said Rose. "He was not just a pregnancy, not just a fetus. He was a son."
"What about the child's choice that has not been represented here tonight," asked Rose. "And so let me ask the question here plainly. Should murder be legal? Should murder be legal? Of course not. Then why do we excuse abortion?"
"Abortion is the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being. It is not an accident. It is the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being. That is the reality behind euphemisms like choice," said Rose as she begins to detail the gruesome procedures used to carry out abortions.
Like tearing limbs off of a baby for a "suction abortion" or starving a baby to death with drugs through a "medication abortion" or piercing a baby's heart with a needle to terminate the baby's life.
"These are acts of killing," explains an emotional Rose.
She then went on to debunk the two arguments usually used for abortion -- that the entity in the womb is somehow less than a human being, which Rose called "science denial," and that sometimes it is "okay" to kill an innocent human being.
She also cited the protections under the 14th Amendment and argued those protections should extend to babies in the womb because science has repeatedly confirmed that human life begins at conception.
"Over 63 million children in the United States alone have been killed by abortion," said Rose. "Have been denied their humanity, their value, their choice. Have not been given a chance. The pattern has always been the same. Strip away the personhood. Redefine human beings as something that is less than, and then commit atrocities in the name of somebody else's progress."
She likened abortion to the same dark logic used to commit historical atrocities, and repeatedly referred to the practice of abortion as "violence" against vulnerable children.
"True women's empowerment cannot come from the bloodshed of our children," argued Rose. "Abortion, the direct and intentional killing of a child, is never medically necessary."
Rose encouraged everyone to choose love, not violence.
Then Kissling had five minutes to question Rose.
Kissling asked if all of the people responsible for murdering babies should be put in jail.
Rose responded, indicating that she would like to see abortion criminalized, and then cited a number of changes she would endorse to support pregnant women and families, including reducing the financial challenges and high cost of having a baby.
When it was Rose's turn for questions, she asked if Kissling thought children in the womb had any value.
Kissling said they do, and that it would be inappropriate to say that a fetus does not have value -- but what that value is seems "complicated" for Kissling to explain, though she later admitted that newborns have as much value as fully grown adults.
In her closing remarks, Rose argued that all humans, even in the womb, deserve the same rights, and equal protection under the law. She reminded the audience of historical atrocities committed against those who were viewed as "less than" human because of their age, skin color, beliefs, etc. And that the whole idea of "choice" is empty since the child does not have a choice in an abortion.
"It is never acceptable to take the life of someone who is weak and dependent," said Rose. "The choice before us is clear. I believe that if we continue to permit the violence against our most vulnerable unborn children who have no way to advocate for themselves, protect themselves, if we continue to permit the bloodshed of almost 3,000 deaths every single day, boys and girls just like us whose lives were cut short, our nation will continue to devolve into violence and into injustice."
Kissling's closing remarks focused on the belief that "every human life is of equal value."
She suggested that reality is different, and that every life does not have equal value, citing Gaza and Ukraine as examples.
"Should it have equal value? Yes, in a way, in a way it should. But then you get into philosophy and you get into thought experiments," said Kissling whose rambling comments included a strange attempt to inject race into the equation before self correcting.
After the debate ended, Lila posted on X, "We won. The room voted for the pro-life side. Yale organizer was shocked. Change is here. Thank you for praying."
"In a clear victory, the audience voted Lila Rose the winner by a decisive margin of 60–31," boasted Live Action on YouTube.
You can watch the full debate below.
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